Ask Wally Archives
1/01/04 - 6/31/04

6/15/2004
Q. What does a realtor say when approached by a person in a store asking about the real estate market?

A. Are you a buyer or seller?

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6/14/2004
Q. I have been in the real estate business for 3 years but have just recently been licensed. With my first listing appt coming up tomorrow, can you suggest if I have gotten "off track" by scheduling an appoitment with the seller that has no equity, thus would have to pay commision out of there own pocket. He has lived in the house for 2 years with a first loan amount of 122k and a HELOC at 15K. Based on the CMA, similar homes are selling at 125k-135k. His motivation to sell is because he currently moved into his new wifes home and is renting his house for 300 under his mortgate. Any time saving advice or direction would be helpful. Dennis

A. You are on the right track. Your goal is an appointment and to help people. However, once I learned that there is negative equity, I would have called the seller to find out if they have a source for paying the amount that is short. Maybe you can mitigate the shortfall with a short sale? But that's another story.... Get the lead, determine motivation, see if the seller is willing to solve the problem and then spend the time on the appointment.

 

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6/9/2004
Q. I was in one of your classes and I have talked to you about this before but I don't know how to implement this program. I am working with sellers with new construction and want to be a limited investor. I thought you mentioned that I would be able to use my commission as part of this limited partnership with these sellers. Thank you for all your help! Donna

A. The easiest way to become a builder's partner is to send them land/lot offerings on a weekly basis. Offer to promote them on your website with their bio, elevations, and other information. Offer to sell their client's resale homes and give them a referral fee. Most importantly, loan them the commission that you earn on any land they buy from you in return for a limited partnership interest in the build project. You are now a partner, making a return (hopefully) on the project, being a partner of the builder and probably listing the property on the way out - think out of the box!! Thanks, Walter S. Sanford

 

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6/7/2004
Q. Walter, I'm a brand new Realtor and I have a question. The area I want to market has a lot of FSBO's. It's a market of houses priced $300,000 and up. Do you recommend contacting FSBO's as a strategy to build a base or listings? If so, how would I approach the sellers? In person or by phone? What kind of "pitch" would make an impression? Thanks for any feedback. I've enjoyed reading your articles on Realtor Magazine Online. Diana

A. Hello Diana! There are some articles or Ask Wally sections regarding this very thing on my website. Go there for more information. Yes, FSBO is one of the "legs" of your business plan. It will even be better when they can't sell so fast. A great method is to send them my letters, call them to see if any of the services offered are needed, send them to your website for more of my services for FSBO, visit and then re-call and send more letters. This should be done consistently and a system like that could capture 20% of the available listings. I know it works. I did it many times. Good luck!!

Q. What do you mean by "services for FSBO's" exactly? What services would I provide a FSBO? Thanks, Diana

A. Get up a sign, put in a combo lock box, give them access to your team, offer lender pro formas, and offer free web advertising. You can also offer them free contracts, advice, pre-listing services like maximizing value analysis and lots more.

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6/2/2004
Q. Dear Walter: I read your excellent article about the importance of testimonials. You are right on the mark. These days with the identity theft and all other problems, how willing are your customers to have their name, address or (even their photos) on the website. Your answer will help me tremendously. Thanks. Sam Khan, Realtor

A. Thanks Sam. I have never had the identity theft objection. However, I am sure that with only their name, general location, and their glowing testimonial -- that no one would have enough info to steal their identity. If when we ask and they say "no" then we just plug in another of our happy clients!

 

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6/2/2004
Q. My question to appear in ASK WALLY:
I am 18 years old. I do not want to attend college. I am currently taking a real estate course. I have taken 2 of the 3 exams needed to pass the class. 1st test I scored 94%, 2nd I scored 95% I am talking with real estate companies now , what are some of the questions I should ask them? Also, do you have any advise for me when I start selling real estate? Jonathan R. Baker, Evansville, IN

A. GO TO COLLEGE!

 

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5/28/2004

Q. Hi Walter,

I stumbled upon your site tonight and discovered some of the best advice I’ve heard yet for building and growing business. As a newbie to real estate with a strong tech background, what software products do you feel deliver the most bang for the buck? Currently, I’m using Goldmine as my contact database for prospecting new leads, mainly demographic “data dumps” from tax records and the Haines Cris&Cross directory. However, I find it difficult to use for tracking true client activities (listing, sales, etc.), mainly because the database has grown so large. I’ve looked at Top Producer but am leery of software that is proprietary, difficult to customize and/or which tries to “host” (read: “capture”) your client info online.

Thanks for the great ideas in your article session, especially the lender/agent teamwork.

Sincerely, Lee Harrison

A. I am afraid Top Producer is the way to go. They have the user base and therefore the support. Thanks for the question. Walter S. Sanford

 

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5/12/2004

Q. I'm getting back into real estate after being out for several years, so I thought I would see what you were up to. Last I knew, you were in Southern California. What are you doing in Kankakee?! Kankakee! I grew up in Kankakee. Surely you didn't end up there by accident, so what gives? Jeffrey Leone

A. Hello Jeff! Welcome back. Your timing will be challenging. We are at the top, but you know that agents get out of the business faster than the business goes down. Let me know how I can help your already excellent skills. Regarding living in Kankakee -- I married the world's finest woman. She is tops in real estate here plus I can buy little houses (that rent for $1000.00 a month) for $90,000.00. I am like a kid in a candy store. Thanks, Wally

 

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5/10/2004
Q. Dear Wally: I am currently employed as a helicopter paramedic and recently signed up with my first broker as a licensed salesperson. In addition to the standard methods for lead generation, I would like to also focus my efforts on doctors, nurses, and paramedics. After 20 years in the medical field, my familiarity with these three groups is substantial. Any advice on how to market to a specific demographic group? Thanks John.

A. Hi John! First of all there are no standard methods of lead generation. All of them can be moved to a higher standard. The one you choose is a demographic database. Your first job is to obtain a database of the group. The database is to include name, home address, home phone, business phone, email address, and business address. Next, you need to make a list of services that would excite them. For instance, medical investor groups that you find and manage property for or offer a free 24 phone value analysis of their current holdings. Maybe put yourself out as a 1031 tax deferred exchange expert? I would not start until you could think up 30 amazing services that do not cost a lot but will excite people. Next introduce yourself, your theme and 5 of your best services by mail and email. Follow-up by phone on a cleaned list (visit donotcallprotection and mention me for a discount). Mail again with more services and so on. Send a
testimonial to happy, medically orientated clients, and start on a web site that is devoted to their needs. Offer a free seminar on investing. Send special invitations to amazing open houses -- just for your database. Get your team to specialize in loans where the clients are from the medical professions. When you are known and have all the above done, start advertising in the places they read. Sounds like you are going to be very busy! Thanks, Wally

 

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5/10/2004
Q. Walter I need some advice. I would like to tap into this exploding FSBO market. I am usually very good at public speaking. But on the phone to the FSBO's I am a babbling dunce. Do you have a system for this, or maybe a script. Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Jesse Hammond, Joliet, IL

A. Jesse, tell them that your reach is longer. You beat the list to sale ratios of your area because of your buyer database, your internet strategy, your search engine strategy, your telemarketing effort, your direct mail effort, your human resources deptartment solicitation effort, and your Realtor to Realtor strategies. Let them know that you will price correctly and you will net them more because of the extra buyers you net from your efforts. You will also cut the costs of the transfer because of the utilization of your team's buying power. More buyers, more offers, higher prices, less problems, faster service - Mr. Johnson would 6 or 7PM be more convenient for me to show these systems to you in person and in writing with a guarantee? Good Luck!! Wally

 

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5/1/2004
Q. Is it okay for a realtor to present a counter offer over the phone, rather in person? Barbara

A. Hello Barbara, and thank you. The answer is -- it is not legal but necessary! Like everything, my answer comes with a system. -- Inform the seller that to keep the negotiations moving freely much negotiation is done over the phone with documents sent or faxed for signatures later. Tell them it is sometimes impossible to coordinate the schedules of the property sellers, the buyer's agent, and yourself. Also, ask for written instructions signed from the seller for the buyer's agent to submit all offers to you directly for evaluation prior to presentation. This will allow you to make your own schedule, do any research you need to and to keep the buyer's agent out of the equation which will make the presentation doable over the phone. Leave a standard contract with the seller so that they have something to refer to when the offer does come in. It is hard to read that little printing on a fax sometimes. It also shows how sure you are of yourself at the listing presentation. When the offer comes in tell the buyer's agent to submit to you by dropping off at your office or they could fax or email it to you as well. If there is a problem than you can always meet with the seller but try this first. I was famous for a double standard - I always presented my own offers and tried to present those of other agents to my sellers without them! Sometimes you get away with such a policy and sometimes not. Call the seller, presents and get acceptance, counter or rejection. You have saved hours. Submit results to buyer's agent for their acceptance, rejection, counter. Remember the statute of frauds says that if it's not in writing, it did not happen. So when you get acceptance by all parties - get them in to sign immediately. Did I ever loose a deal between agreement and signature? They would have wiggled out anyway. Good luck, save your seller's time and yours. But understand you have nothing till it is signed. Thanks, Wally

 

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5/1/2004
Q. I know that a lot of organizations need funding for whatever reason, (supplies, materials, etc.), schools for school books, supplies, etc., churches (building materials, etc.) I would like to give back to the community by way of donations for any member that sells or buys a house thru me. I would like to offer gift certificates to maybe Home Depot, Lowes, etc. for churches and organizations. I would like to purchase school supplies, etc. for schools. Could you give any suggestions as to how I could attract organizations, churches and schools? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I also had a idea of offering a $250 credit to any parent(s) who has a child in day care who purchases a home thru me but I don't know how I would go about it. Thanks, Yvette Allen, REMAX, Hampton, GA

A. Yvette, since any kickback scheme can be questioned by the licensing authority and also by the recipients in regards to your sincerity, I believe there may be a better way. Most giving is more successful when nothing is expected in return, but like most things -- that is when it returns the most. Give freely of your time when community wide challenges arise. Stop the tearing down of that antique library. Show up with clothes, money, and a ready to go rental from one of your investors when a family loses a home to a fire. Coach a little league team. Start a real estate scholarship at the local community college. I know you are looking for the business first then you give the spiff -- but it works better the other way both for you and your eventual accomplishments. Thanks, Wally

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4/27/2004
Q. I would like to know if you have a series of letters that can be used to get probate listings, similar to what you have for N.O.D.'S you have in your Book, "Top 375 letter's".Thanks, Dave, Redlands, CA

A. David, the best method is to contact the attorney's directly with some of my letters and add obbits to your just sold/ just listed campaign. Walter S. Sanford

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4/26/2004
The following is an extensive list of questions. To make it easier to read and understand, we've broken the questions up into parts with their corresponding answers.

Q: Hi, Walter! What is the Goal of Absentee Owner Phone Call- CMA for prospects to be closed later, right?
A: Hello, Rocky. I never want to do a CMA if I can just list the property. The goal is an appointment with a motivated seller that has as many of their objections to signing a listing handled by the time that I get to their home.

Q: Have you or anyone in your coaching closed for listing in just the phone call? If so, what as the script?
A: Sure, you will find people that are thinking of selling and want you to come over and tell them how their needs will be met. The goals, in order, are as follows:

1. a listing appointment

2. LLA -- listing leads "A" class, which are the hard copy files on your desk of anyone that will pop in 60 days or less

3. Buyers that are willing to jump through my buyer hoops and works the buyer program with me

4. LLB -- listings leads "B" class -- people that will list in 61 days or more and should be calendared in your database

5. life is too short to work with these buyers and sellers -- they should be refered out for a 35% referral fees

Rocky, these are your goals in order when you are on the phone. When we get more lead generation groups going, you will have more leads and you will have to be tougher with servicing only the most motivated.

Q: Can you please give 3 reasons(questions that will move them forward will be great) to get these prospects moving forward witheach of the following scenarios:
1. Not Interested

A: I understand. Is there any reason to call you in the future? May I put you on my information packed ezine/newsletter? It has a lot of local information.

Q: 2. Will Never Sell
A: Then you love real estate as much as I do! May I have your purchase perameters so that I can send you market offerings? Great! I have a lender team member that is offering equity lines at less than 4% which will fund a down payment on a great additional property. Will this service help you?

Q: 3. Take me off the list
A: Sorry to bother you. Watch for my signs....ROCKY GUPTA. Thank you for your time.

Q: 4. Already have an agent/I am an agent/Friend etc. an agent
A: Great! Would you like for me to add your to our new listing email service?

Q: 5. Sell myself vs Agent to save commission
A: Great. I would be happy to show you how I can net more equity. Would 6 or 6:30 tonight be more convenient?

Q: 6. Will rent it vs Sell it -- it is Source of income and do not want to change that....
A: I would like to present you with a return on equity analysis. Would 6 or 6:30 tonight be more convenient?

Q: 7. Children/relative etc. live in it
A: I understand. May I still contact you in the future? Do you know how much that property is now worth? Is there a time in the future when your children/relative may wish to buy it? I can supply you with a great lender so that you can pull out your equity!

Q: 8. Property is free & clear no need to sell and pay taxes, mortgages, high cost of buying new property
A: Let me show you a little known IRS opportunity that allows you to upgrade your investment property into one that you like better. A property that requires less management or one that is closer to you -- with all the tax deferred at sale of your property at ________________________________________.

Q: 9. Not now maybe later
A: When may I re-contact you? (cut that time in half and put in the database) By the way, how will you know that it is time to consider selling?

Q: 10.Like your letter keep sending it.
A: Fantastic! May I confirm all your contact information? By the way, I am striving to present the most current and usable information to my investor clients. What are some of the subjects that you would like me to address in the future? Have you considered adding to your real estate investment portfolio?

Q: 11.Call back later- Unreachable to reach by phone after couple of tries - what message to leave to get a instant call back?
A: Rule #1: trash after three non-returned phone calls Rule #2: make the voice mail message filled with service; give them a reason to call back; refer to my lists of services that you offer an absentee owner and the above items

Q: 12. Live close to the property and do not need your service. What should be the service for Absentee Owners who live close to subject property?
A: Free copy of the Southern California Apartment House forms such as the best in applications, lease agreements, addendums, etc. Also a free 15 tax question assessment from your CPA plus a free list of vendors such as electricians, plumbers, painters, carpet people, roofers, heating/AC contractors, landscapers, etc AND a free rental comp service and a free 24 value analysis.

Q: 13. I already have offers.
A: Great! May I have some income and expense information plus the price I have to beat so that my buyers could have a chance at it in the next couple of days?

Q: After Service is provided (CMA/Rental analysis/photos/Maintenance recommendation etc.) what should be next step?
1. Closing questions
2. Creating Urgency questions
A: Go to question one! Get a listing presentation when they are ready, etc, etc.....

Thanks, Walter!
Rocky Gupta, Boardwalk Realty, Venice, California

 

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4/22/2004
Q. Walter, I'm writing a freelance article for The Residential Specialist magazine (from the Council of Residential Specialists, http://www.crs.com). The piece focuses on real estate agents who use technology -- rather than paid helpers -- to generate leads/sales/business. Can you answer the questions below by close of business on Friday, April 23? Thanks for any help you can offer. My cell is 631-463-8600 if you need any clarification from me. I'm also on this email (joe_pan5@yahoo.com) account.

Questions:

1. Your web site hints that real estate firms have to "restaff for the new age using 'unpaid helpers' ". Can you describe key types of "unpaid helper" technologies that real estate agents should explore and potentially embrace?

2. What type of systems should agents explore for low-cost lead generation?

3. Is it always wise to eliminate paid help in favor of low-cost technologies? When doesn't such a move make sense? In other words, when does it pay to stick with paid help rather than a technology?

4. Any other thoughts you'd care to add on technology that empowers real estate agents?

Thanks for your help! Joe Panettieri, contributor, The Residential Specialist

A. (see questions and Walter's answers in CAPS)

1. Your web site hints that real estate firms have to "restaff for the new age using 'unpaid helpers' ". Can you describe key types of "unpaid helper" technologies that real estate agents should explore and potentially embrace?

KEY AFFILIATE MEMBERS OF A TOP PRODUCER'S TEAM WOULD BE UNPAID HELPERS, BUT THIS MAY BE AN UNFAIR ADJECTIVE! A TOP REAL ESTATE PRODUCER HAS THE POTENTIAL TO PROVIDE A GOOD MARKET SHARE OF SERVICES TO ONE AFFILIATE. IF THAT AFFILIATE WAS GIVEN FAIRLY EXCLUSIVE USE AND WAS NEVER REQUIRED TO MAKE THE DREADED SALES CALL WITH DONUTS, RATE SHEETS, STICKY PADS AND PENS AND WAS FREED UP TO CALL ON OTHER CRS TOP PRODUCERS THEY WOULD BE VERY GRATEFUL. I WENT TO ALL MY AFFILIATES AND OFFERED THIS ARRANGEMENT BUT I WILL USE MY LENDER AS AN EXAMPLE. I COUNTERED ALL OFFERS WITH THE FOLLOWING CLAUSE:

BUYER TO BE PRE-APPROVED THROUGH JOHN AT ABC MORTGAGE, AFTER PRE-APPROVAL BUYER IS FREE TO USE ANY LENDER OF THEIR CHOICE. I REFERRED OTHER REAL ESTATE AGENT FRIENDS TO THEM, I FEATURED THEIR BENEFITS ON MY WEB SITE - I HELPED THEM IN MANY WAYS - I WAS A GOOD TEAM MEMBER. IN RETURN I MADE SUGGESTIONS ON HOW THEY COULD HELP ME GET LISTINGS THAT I WAS PRESENTING ON BY USING THIRD PARTY ENDORSEMENT LETTERS TO THE SELLERS. I HAD THEM HANDLE MY FSBO RESEARCH WITH LETTERS AND PHONE CALLS THAT HELPED THE FSBO'S, GOT THEM LOANS AND IDENTIFIED TENDERIZED FSBO'S THAT MAY WELCOME THE HELP OF THE SANFORD TEAM. I HAD THEM SOLICIT DIVORCING HOMEOWNERS WITH REFINANCES THAT TOOK THE VACATING SPOUSES NAME OFF THE UNDERLYING LOAN DOCUMENTS. WHEN THEY COULD NOT GET A NEW LOAN BECAUSE OF EQUITY OR CREDIT, I WAS MENTIONED AS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION AS THE SALES COUNSELOR. WE HELPED EACH OTHER GREATLY HELPING PUT OFF THE HIRING OF AN ASSISTANT.

2. What type of systems should agents explore for low-cost lead generation?

1. 1800 INTERACTIVE TELEPHONE LEADS

2. A STICKY WEB SITE THAT HAS SUCH GOOD INFORMATION A CLIENT WILL LEAVE INFORMATION ABOUT THEMSELVES

3. AUTOMATIC EMAIL RESPONSES

4. THIRD PARTY WEB SITE LEAD GENERATORS

REMEMBER, ALL THE ABOVE EXCEPT NUMBER TWO CREATE LARGE NUMBERS OF UNDER-QUALIFIED LEADS THE TOP PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY STILL LOOK FOR SELLERS IN THE TRADITIONAL DEMOGRAPHICS LIKE EXPIREDS, FSBO, ABSENTEE OWNERS AND DATA BASE AMONG MANY OTHERS AND APPROACH WITH A MULTI MEDIA AND FACETED APPROACH THAT MAY INCLUDE MAIL, EMAIL, ADVERTISING, PHONE, DOOR KNOCKING AND WEB DESTINATIONS

3. Is it always wise to eliminate paid help in favor of low-cost technologies? When doesn't such a move make sense? In other words, when does it pay to stick with paid help rather than a technology?

LOW COST TECH TO REPLACE PERSONAL CLIENT INTERACTION NEVER WORKS EXCEPT AS A SUPPLEMENT TO AN ALREADY STELLER PERSONAL CONTACT SYSTEM AND HOT DEMOGRAPHIC LEAD GENERATION REQUIRES A HUMAN. WE ARE NET SELLING WIDGETS AND TECH SYSTEMS ARE NOT YET FLEXIBLE ENOUGH TO REPLACE A GREAT RAINMAKER AND A WONDERFUL EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT.

4. Any other thoughts you'd care to add on technology that empowers real estate agents?

TECHNOLOGY MAKES THE OLD PROVEN SYSTEMS FASTER AND CHEAPER AND THEREFORE THE SMART USERS CAN DO MORE OF THE SMART STUFF!

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4/20/2004
Q. Walter, Why do you think it is that realtors do not want to spend the money on "real" websites? I know you have sent a few to me that may be interested, but it usually doesn't pan out...... they seem reluctant to really put themselves out there and invest in a "real website", although from what I have seen, they jump at the printed advertising on menus in restaurants, phone books, magazines and newspapers (which can't be cheap). Do they 'not understand' that the internet is the place to go and that written material is here one minute and thrown out the next? I'm interested in learning what holds them back....the benefits are amazing. Thanks for your comments, Barb at WebFoot Designs

A. Barb, The ones that use web sites correctly, love them. The ones that got them for the so called "wow" value are correctly not putting in the effort because there is little return. Get a search engine strategy, be close or on top when your geographical location is searched, have amazing content and free services that people are willing to fill out forms to get and there you have it - a cbo (cyber branch office)! Walter

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4/20/2004
Q. Dear Wally, I first saw you at a Realty World convention in Monterey, Ca in May of 2003. And I must say, I was inspired by your methods and business ethics. So I am hoping that you will be able to provide insight into my own dilemma. I am a recently divorced, single mother of four children, two of which are still in diapers. I was hoping that selling real estate would provide me with the ability to raise my kids on my own. Its been a year and a half since I started this journey and I am beginning to think I made a mistake. I am unable to invest the time required to keep up with the other agents. I lack the experience needed and have a limited ability to receive training. I have all but used up my savings and had to take a job in a real estate office as the front desk person in order to keep a roof over our heads. I had planned on "transitioning" from being office personnel to a full time agent. However, it appears that the brokerage that originally promised to help me make this happen, has now stated that I cant sell real estate on my own time as that would present a conflict of interest with the other agents in the office. While I understand their dilemma, it means I must choose between the $10/hr plus transaction coordinating fees or be an agent. I thoroughly believe that I can be a good agent and that I could be very successful doing it. But is it feasible for me as a single mother of four? Thank you in advance for your response, Tari Clair, Redding, CA

A. Hello Tari, Sure, it is possible but not fun. But neither is four kids on $10.00 + an hour. Why don't you call John Pinto and learn from the best and work for him. Also call Danielle Kennedy, a trainer. She was a success as a single mom with four kids. Also call my old partner, agent, Monica Reynolds at the Mike Ferry Organization, she was a top agent single mom with three kids. They should spend some time with you.. But if it was up to me, I would go for it being an agent even if I had to bring all four kids on a listing presentation!!. Two hours every evening after work where it is not a conflict should be enough to call all the expireds and FSBO you find for the day, they will be home and after a few listings you will have the momentum to quit. Walter S. Sanford

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4/11/2004
Q. Mr.Sanford, I have ready on your website that you have premade Testimonial letters that you provide to some of your clients. I would be interested in seeing an example or two of the premade letters. If it would not be any trouble can you send me a sample of a testimonial letter. Thanks, Russ

A. Russ, the best method is to take excerpts from past testimonial letters and send them to the client with a self addressed, stamped envelope and then from you priming the pump, you usually get back something pretty good.

 

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3/28/2004
Q. I put the four phases of business as:

1. lead generation
2. lead conversion
3. pending processing
4 database past client farming

If this is incorrect, I would like to receive your take on the processes of the business. Ray

A. Ray you are pretty close. Here is what I think the evolution of this business looks like:

1. Determination of the demographics or systems to go after and obtain seller leads based on budget and time. These will range from a letter, visit, phone, web campaign to FSBOs to a search engine strategy pointing to an i for i site.

2. Based upon your available time, power to delegate or propensity to hire, time blocking regular times to research, implement and follow-up on above.

3. With the goal of obtaining a listing appointment your skill in counseling the client, preparing the pre-list package, making a listing presentation, overcoming commission objections and receiving terms upon the property that make it saleable and profitable.

4. Your ability to leverage your now past client for more business and leads integrated with the other lead generation systems in number 1 that you are adding to all the time.

Hope this helps!! Walter

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3/19/2004
Q. I have been told in several seminars that having testimonies is the key to gaining trust in a listing presentation; however, I also have been told that we need to write these testimonies and get permission for our clients to sign it because people often don't know what to write. Do you have any sample testimony letters that you can recommend as an example?
Thanks, Karen

A. Karen, don't you just hate seminars. They give you all those ideas but never tell you how to do it. Here is the obtaining testimonial system:

1. On your listing checklist and closing checklist have a line that reminds you to ask for testimonials:

A. "Gee Mr. Johnson, we are sure getting a lot of play from my advertising....when this is all done will you write me a testimonial letter on your stationery?"

B. "Heck, replacing wonderful clients like you is the hardest thing that I have to do. Would you please write me or email me some thought from your heart as to how you liked working with me?"

2. When you have done the above, you can now remind them about the letter at closing. "Here, let me get some paper for you and let's do it now while we are waiting."

3. Since, with my systems, you will be sending out a critique after close with the VIP client club letter, you can ask again.

4. If you still do not have it, send out the TESTIMONIAL LETTER PRIMER. What it does is give them quotes from other happy clients so that they can get ideas to get their creative juices flowing. Send a self-addressed, stamped envelope with this one.

5. Only after you have done all the above, offer to write it for them, if they have not asked already! Then repeat the highlights of the transaction through your client's eyes to the best of your ability. Walter S. Sanford

 

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3/14/2004
Q. I am wanting to begin a career in real estate, but I do not know alot about it. Can you send me some pros and cons so I can decide if this would be successful for me? Thanks, Misti

A. Con's:

You can work for free for years for someone before you ever get paid.
When you do get paid, for 80% of the agents, it will be just enough to pay everyone back the money you borrowed when you were not getting paid.
After the transaction has been decided upon, it is not done
Everyone will do your job for less money
You work really hard to get a listing and then you have to pay Realtor.com to see it
For months there can be slow business, but the week before you go on vacation is the busiest week of your life.
You'e on the same list with used car salesmen
You can work evenings and weekends and not be appreciated
When you know what you are doing the Pro's are:

Net income beyond your wildest dreams
A well respected and sought out adviser to your community
A controllable business where you make the hours
You get to decide what your pay check will be
Your a wholesale merchant in the world's greatest investment product - real estate
You become your own best client
You get to choose whom to work with
You can build an annuity of business to perpetuity
You can give yourself a raise anytime you wish
There are no bosses to rain on your parade
You can wake up and say, "I love this business, but I don't have to go to work today"
Bottom line, for me it is the world's greatest business that I have loved, lived, given to, received from for 35 years. For other's it is a nightmare. What kind of person are you? Hint... if you are a self motivator, a self starter, organized, business minded, budget minding, net income aware, pleasing, guider of humanity then you will do very well. Thanks, Walter S. Sanford

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3/10/2004
Q. Hello Walter:

I'm working on an article for Texas Realtor that will cover "negotiating strategies for Realtors" and I'm looking for a few experts/consultants/coaches who might be available next week to do a short phone interview based on 4-5 interview questions that I can send over ahead of time. Can you let me know if you might like to participate? The article I'm working on will be published in an upcoming issue of Texas REALTOR magazine, and will give readers hands-on strategies/advice that they can use when negotiating deals or helping clients do the same. We're looking to cover solid, fair negotiating strategies and tactics that agents and brokers can put to work in their own day-to-day routines.

Below, please find a few interview questions that I'd like to discuss with you sometime this week or early next week (my deadline is 9/26). Best times for me are between 10:30 and 4pm Eastern, so just let me know what works for you.

Interview Questions:

Your name:________________________________________

Title: _______________________________________________

Company name: _____________________________________

Location: ___________________________________________

(for agents): years in real estate, sales #s for 2002:

(for experts): a sentence describing your firm and what it does.

For starters, just how important are negotiations to the agent's overall duties when working with homebuyers and sellers? How important is this particular element of the process?

How does one go about preparing a client on what to expect during the negotiating process? What can an agent do to ensure that the process goes smoothly?

Please outline 2-3 of the most important negotiating strategies that you feel an agent/broker should be using right now, tell what the strategy is, how one goes about using it and what results/benefits an agent can expect from using the strategy:

On another note, what are a few top strategies that an agent/broker can use when negotiating directly with a client, say over commission rates? What strategies work best during these situations and why?

 

Thanks, Bridget McCrea

A. Here is a start: I was in real estate as a broker, working as an agent from 1978 to 2001. My best year was 78 million in personal sales in one year. I made over 1.6 million in commission for 11 years straight. I now have moved to Kankakee, IL from Long Beach Ca and have two new daughters (first time daddy) and speak about 100 times a year all over the world but mainly in the US and Canada. I teach high production systems to top producers and soon to be top producers. I have authored 13 books on high production real estate that I self publish. Here are some thought on your questions:

1. This is a huge concern. Are Realtors® responsible to make the transaction happen or make it happen at the best price. The answer is to negotiate with the clients motivation in mind. Price and other contract negotiations can alienate the seller or the seller's agent and force them to look at other buyers, when if explained to the buyer they might not care about a 10,000 savings over 30 years which is $60.00 per month - they might want the house as their top priority. It is the Realtors@ responsibility to determine what the hierarchy of motivations the buyer and seller has because sometimes they are mutually exclusive. Work on the client's needs, not the agent's.

2. To make the process smoother the agent must counsel the client.  Here are the questions that I would ask a seller:

A. " Mr. Johnson, if price becomes a stumbling block and they refuse your counter - offer tell me how that affects your future. I want you to realize that if they refuse the counter offer you have in essence bought your property back for the amount of the counter. Are you sure that is your goal?" All potential stumbling blocks must be covered to understand the seller's resolve before you risk losing the transaction to tough negotiations.

B. For a buyer I would recommend that they understand the comparables and offer the best price possible that will accomplish the buyers goals and the seller's goals if the buyer really wants the property as their primary goal. If price for a buyer is the primary goal they prepare the buyer for many offers on many properties.

3. The most important negotiating strategies for an agent currently are:

A. Obtaining the listing without giving away the store. Walking out with a well priced listing, with full listing time period and a full commission without promising expensive marketing is the hallmark of a professional. To accomplish this the agent must know about the seller's hopes, wants, dreams and aspirations by an extensive pre-counseling session prior to the appointment. Needs, motivations, concerns must all be realized and a plan for solving them must be planned before the agent should go on the appointment.

B. The second most important negotiating tech. is the ability to negotiate a relationship with a buyer. I do this by making them clear hurdles before I give them my time, my life and my family's time. The must complete a nice phone interview consisting of 38 questions. They must then be pre-approved by my lender. They must then meet me at my office. They must then listen to my presentation. They must then sign a loyalty agreement (Buyer Brokerage Agreement). These four hoops must be jumped through (negotiated) before I will work on a contingency basis.

C. The third most important negotiation for an agent is one for their time. Here agents are negotiation with life. To be successful they must determine their core values i.e.: time with family, health, faith, friends, fun etc. and then determine their goals on a one year, three year, five year and ten year basis, - every year. Then they must determine a life plan. I do this by taking a week-at-a-glance calendar and time blocking my perfect week. What is left is my time for lead generation and other functions of my real estate business based upon my production goals. There is a famous quote: "Life only gave me what I asked of it."

4. There is only one way to negotiate commissions in my opinion:

A. Isolate the objection: "So, Mr. Johnson am I hearing you correctly that if I can increase your net proceeds by one percent then you can go ahead with me tonight on the marketing of your home at my regular fee?"

B. If there is agreement and that is the last objection then all I have to do is show him how to increase his net proceeds by 1% to keep all of my commission. I can do that by:
1. raising the price
2. showing discounts using my team
3. showing savings by having an inspection report done prior to the buyer buying the property.
4. showing them how I beat the list to sale ratio of the local board averages
5. showing them how my marketing will bring in more buyers and how more buyers equal higher prices.

Bridget, I hope you like this and can use it. I am of course still available to speak with you. Thanks,
Walter S. Sanford

Hello Walter:

I'm working on an article for Florida REALTOR (the piece is national in scope) and was wondering if you might like to participate via a short email or phone interview. I've pasted the details and interview questions below -- let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Bridget McCrea

727-733-4446

 

The article I'm working on will be published in an upcoming issue of Florida REALTOR Magazine, and will focus on specific strategies that REALTORS can use to stand out in a competitive market.

Below, please find the interview questions that I'd either like to discuss with you, or that you can answer via email. If you choose the latter option, please be as detailed as possible with your answers. The magazine would also like a headshot/photo of all interviewees, so please let me know if you have one available.

I'll be interviewing this week and next for a March 17th deadline. Best interview times for me are between 10:30am and 4pm Eastern, so just let me know what works for you.

Regards,

Bridget McCrea

727-733-4446

Interview Questions:

Your name: Walter S. Sanford

Title: Owner

Company name: Sanford Systems and Strategies

City, State: 559 S. Washington Ave., Kankakee, IL 60901

For agents: #years in real estate and 2003 sales volume

For experts: description of your firm: ANSWER: Walter Sanford was one of the top agents in North America in the 80's and 90's. Walter Started speaking on his strategies, checklists and systems that enabled him to do 70 million dollars a year in sales consistently for 20 years. He has written 11 books with software on how to implement those systems.

Please detail what you feel are the top 2 strategies that you use (or, that agents should consider using) to stand on in a marketplace where NAR expects a 5% drop in home sales in 2004 combined with a 2003 membership increase of 27 percent. Please include the following:

a) Details on the strategy itself: what it is, how it works, etc.

b) When you started using it and why – where did the idea come from?THE IDEAS THAT I WROTE ABOUT CAME ABOUT BY USING THEM MYSELF IN MY 30 YEAR REAL ESTATE BROKERAGE CAREER

c) How much time/money you've invested in this strategy (or, how much a Realtor can expect to invest): THE DATA BASE STRATEGY CAN START TODAY WITH NO INVESTMENT EXCEPT THE 1/2 OF TIME. THE FSBO STRATEGY WILL REQUIRE WEEKLY RESEARCH, LETTERS AND EMAILS SENT LETTING THEM KNOW WHY YOUR STRATEGIES WILL ALLOW THEM TO SELL THEIR HOME FOR MORE MONEY IN LESS TIME AND WITH LESS COMPLICATIONS. THE ANTI-COMMISSION CUTTING STRATEGY CAN BE IMPLEMENTED IMMEDIATELY AT LITTLE OR NO COST.

d) The results that have come from using the strategy (what percentage increase in sales? What percentage increase in inquiry calls? Etc.), or the attainable results that a Realtor can expect: THE RESULTS ENJOYED BY CALLING YOUR DATA BASE IS ONE NEW LEAD FOR EVERY 13 CONNECTED PHONE CALLS ASKING FOR REPEAT BUSINESS, REFERRAL BUSINESS, NEW INVESTMENT BUSINESS. THE RESULTS ENJOYED BY COMMENCING WITH A FSBO PROGRAM THAT INCLUDES EXHAUSTIVE RESEARCH OF THE FSBO'S NAMES, ADDRESSES AND PHONE NUMBERS FROM ALL POSSIBLE SOURCES, AND THEN CALLING AND EMAILING HELPFUL SERVICES WEEKLY WITH A GOOD FOLLOW-UP PLAN CAN RESULT IN A 10% MARKET SHARE OF THE AVAILABLE FSBO MARKET. BEING TOUGHER ON THE COMMISSION ISSUE CAN HAVE THE GREATEST IMPACT ON AN AGENT'S BOTTOM LINE.

ANSWER: Based on 2004 maintaining bargain interest rates, more new agents starting in the market and a small drop in units being sold means that the most profitable segment of the market will continue to be the intelligent acquisition of listings and inventory. The fastest and most profitable models for the acquisition of listings in the balance of 2004 will be A. Database solicitation B. FSBO

A. Database solicitation. Your client's are the least expensive means of generating new business. Properly handled they are outside the confines of the "DO NOT CALL RULES". They are getting tired of impersonal technology and want to hear from the head honcho with services that will change their lives. The main rainmaker (don't delegate this one) has to get back on the phone everyday. I want you to call them twice a year and try two times. That means take your data base and divide it by 250 working days and multiply by two. If you have 700 in your database then the numbers would be 700/250=2.8X2=5.6 calls a day during the work week. It will be more that that because if we get a no answer, left message, or have to research a new number, you have to make a second and sometimes third call. I would say a time blocked section of a half hour a day would handle the above situation. Calling is easy, just tell them about all the things you and your team is doing. Investment property research, refinance viability, Free equity check or free tax advice from your accountant could be just a few hooks to cause them to return your call or discuss their future plans.

B. FSBO solicitation. With slower sales and unrealistically priced FSBO sellers, that segment will find that they need a professional when showings drop off. FSBO are "do not call" compliant for my company because we also buy real estate. If purchasing the property does not meet our criteria then we will offer out exclusive marketing plan. A systemized approach to FSBO research, multi-media contacts and follow-up is required to capture this niche.

SECOND ANSWER: With more agents chasing fewer transactions we can only see the trend of commission cutting to continue. Shaving a percentage point by going from my commission rate of 6% to 5% and taking the hit on the listing side therefore going from 3% to 2% cuts my net profit in half assuming a 33% overhead. Therefore systems must be put in place to keep the profit intact. There are hundreds of scripts floating around about how to say no to a seller that wants a reduction, but the most impactful and client pleasing method of commission negotiation is to show how you and your team and systems actually brings more money to the table making commission reductions moot. These special values that you can bring to the table are:

1. Beating the Board's average list to sale ration by your superior negotiating ability

2. Beating the average days on the market therefore cutting carrying costs

3. Supplying a team for the same cost of a single agent

4. Demonstrating contract knowledge so that disputes and litigation are minimized

5. Systems and checklists in place to provide continuity and completeness of service

6. A marketing plan, internet strategy and search engine regimine that pulls more buyers through the home and therefore a greater chance of a higher offering price.

7. Service standards like our "three hour return phone call guarantee" that saves the client time to tend to their own job.

And many more!

I hope this is enough information to make your article great, thank you for the opportunity!!

Regards,
Bridget McCrea

 

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3/7/2004
Q. What is your personal opinion on what the subject line should be on a monthly email newsletter to SOI? Should it be consistent every month with the same or is change of subject better? Mari, Sugar Land, TX

A. Good morning Marti, You did not give me the right answer in your choices. If I am in your sphere and I am not getting something neat from you every month my spam software will hunt you down and eliminate you. The neat stuff are item in the area and the Nation that effect the value of my investment. The sales and how long they take. The ways to save money on insurance, property taxes, income taxes, or something that I buy personally. Your personal experience on a Culligan water softener, a new deck, a Jacuzzi, a kitchen re-do or an ion air freshener. An email service that tells me what any address sold for and when. A brand new business that you have obtained on line coupons for. A fun local city event that you will be at and have stuff for the kids - a summer concert were you have Frisbees with your name on them if they call you. What day will your boat tour of waterfront properties be on. I am already looking forward to your ezine with interesting subject lines with stuff I am interested in. Walter

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3/3/2004
Q. Hello Walter,

First of all, I would like to thank you for the quick reply to my email, my question was answered very straightforward and clear.

I have been reading the Q & A section, and have experienced that it's a very resourceful section of your website. Reading it, a few questions popped into my mind.

Being a RE/MAX associate, I daily perform in a team of other sales associates. I understand you are not the greatest supporter of forming teams. Being someone that reads various literature 2-3 hours a day in the real estate field, I have already experienced that people ask me questions about various areas in the field. Should I continue to invest in the team, lose some time and answer all questions. Or should I be a bit closed, not lose time and keep the knowledge to myself?

What number of hours do you think a starter should be working in the real estate field. I have heard estimates of 40 in the beginning and 20 later on, and I have heard stories about putting in 100-80 hours. What is your personal experience?

What do you think about relying heavily upon your center of influence. I have chosen one particular area, and have put in all I've got to become a market leader in that area. Should I expand my thinking, or rely on that?

If I'm interested in purchasing your materials, what materials would you recommend? I'm a relative newbie, and I'm living in Europe, so laws about real estate are different here, might want to keep that in mind when dispensing advice. The people's attitude might differ too, is that a problem. Is it possible to purchase material, and if so, what are the shipping costs?

This has become quite a long question, but I hope you can help me out with this.

Thanks in advance.

All the best, Arno Wingen

A. Hello Arno, selling in Europe with the newer commission structure is transforming your market to a closer model of our all the time. Your question about teams is unclear. I do not like partners - people that share in the production of income, expensed and profits. It is rare that a situation like that works - there will be resentment by one sooner or later. I love teams, people you hire or people that help you, like lenders in the expectation that you will be loyal to them. Unless you are the manager, owner, broker do not hang out with real estate agents. Be nice, but remember I get paid for training - you do not. I spent 30-40 hours a week in the business for 30 years and was the top agent in North America for many of those years. It takes discipline and good client pre-qualification, good systems and checklists to do that. I believe in controlling the inventory and if center of influence means data base, yes that is one of the top ten ways to generate listings. The starting place for my materials and the ones that are European safe are 1,2,3,4 at www.waltersanford.com. When you buy four, we will pay shipping. Thanks for your question, Walter

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2/21/2004
Q. Walter, Tom would like to send out a St. Patrick's day letter to his data base….I am swamped with all the work in the office and I do not have the time to write a letter. I am hoping that you might have a letter to suggest for me to print out and send or you have one you can email me…I would really appreciate it…I am on complete overload doing all the work by myself. Thanks, Ana

A. How about this:

Happy St. Patrick's Day! St. Patrick's calling was to convert the pagans of Ireland to Christianity. He used the shamrock to represent the Holy Trinity - how three separate distinct entities can be one. What does this have to do with Vegas real estate?????

Nothing. However, we have pagans in Vegas and its a good time to write you all a little note wishing you good luck in the balance of this years hot real estate market. Many of my clients believe me to be a real hero. Prices are way up for my sellers, but I have found some secret stuff for my buyers. My investors have made a ton of equity and my clients still appreciate my little services that they get by being a VIP client.

Call my staff or I today and request some of the items that have made me a hero:
1. Free value update for your insurance, balance sheet or piece of mind.
2. Free property searches for that property you have been dreaming about- sent email daily!
3. Free networking with the best contractors in town - believe me, with my new home - I know them all!
4. Free property tax reassessment. I may be able to help you reduce your taxes.
5. Free amortization schedules - let me help you get your payments down.
6. Free improvement analysis - I will tell you what improvements that you will get your money back on
7. Free IRC 1031 tax deferred exchange analysis - my clients don't pay taxes when they sell!

These are just seven of the favorites, what do you need from the number one agent in Vegas? If you see me out and about on St. Patty's day and you can't use any of the free services above, at least consider this a drink coupon.

Sincerely,

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2/20/2004
Q. I am interested in doing Bank Foreclosures. Is there an opportunity here in Orange County California with any banks that you know of? Thanks, Dee

A. You need to get all of the REO depts. of all the banks in the nation that own loans in Orange County. I did it about 10 years ago but the list is now old. Then you need a newsletter, email, phone campaign to show them all the services that you offer. All the letters that I wrote that won the business in Long Beach back in the dark days of 93-95 are in my Letter/Email book. I think you are a genius in getting a jump on the reo and short sale opportunities that will abound when the rates go up. Being first in any lead generation trend insures your success if you use my systems. Thanks, Walter

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2/13/2004
Q. The clients of a home I have listed have decided they do not want to sell. I have presented them with three offers in the first two weeks. The listing is less than 30 days old. Their wish to terminate is a breach of contract. They have simply changed their minds and want me to find a renter instead. I have about 30 hours of time in this project, so I want to charge a termination fee. The commission would have been close to $6,000 which we would have split with the buyer's agent. They have moved out of state, so I doubt very much there will be any referrals forthcoming, particularly since they have told me they now have a friend who is a realtor.

A. Katheryn, this is one of those tough decisions. I will make it better for the future, so that you never have to have this happen again. On your next listing presentation I want you to offer KATHERYN'S EASY OUT LISTING AGREEMENT which offers for any reason and instantaneously you will cancel their listing should they need to. There is a $1000.00 cancellation charge that will help defray your overhead and it is fully refundable should they ever list with you again during your career and the property sells. Also, a full commission is due should the property be transferred to anyone except a family member for 24 months after this agreement. All terms are negotiable. It is a great listing tool and cures the problem upfront. Now what to do now. I don't like being a weenie head or being taken advantage of. If they want out for nice and good reasons, let them on the provision that they will list with you again. If they do not want to list with you again tell them you will accept $1500.00 to pay for your time and overhead and they can pay you over time or out of the proceeds of a sale. You can take a lien on the property. If they do not agree to that, then you have to decide if the fight is really worth it. You can expend so much negative energy, that if re-aligned to a positive pursuit of listings, you could probably get five. Thanks for asking. Walter S. Sanford

 

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2/13/2004
Q. Most of the agents in my office have little experience and absolutely no training. The broker offers no training. I have had quite a bit of training and so when other have questions, they always come to me. The broker is too busy and unavailable. I love to help, but I am making no profit at all this help. One of my colleagues is really a newbie and wants me to help her. She seems to have a knack with people and business just seems to come to her while that it tough for me. We are thinking of teaming up somehow. She needs help with contracts, negotiations, comps. What type of financial arrangement dollar wise can we work out. The broker already takes 30%.

A. Hello Katheryn: I do not like partnerships, have not seen too many work. There are exceptions. I think I would ask for 20% of every one of her transactions that you help with. She will want to learn quickly at that rate and you get paid for taking valuable time away from your own lead generation.

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2/13/2004
Q. Most of the agents in my office have little experience and absolutely no training. The broker offers no training. I have had quite a bit of training and so when other have questions, they always come to me. The broker is too busy and unavailable. I love to help, but I am making no profit at all this help. One of my colleagues is really a newbie and wants me to help her. She seems to have a knack with people and business just seems to come to her while that it tough for me. We are thinking of teaming up somehow. She needs help with contracts, negotiations, comps. What type of financial arrangement dollar wise can we work out. The broker already takes 30%. Katheryn

A. Hello Katheryn: I do not like partnerships, have not seen too many work. There are exceptions. I think I would ask for 20% of every one of her transactions that you help with. She will want to learn quickly at that rate and you get paid for taking valuable time away from your own lead generation. Walter S. Sanford

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1/21/2004
Q. Hello Walter, I'm a 20 year old RE/MAX Associate. I've just started in the real estate game, and I enjoyed your articles while collecting all the help I could get. However, I have experienced that because of my age, people do not always take me serious. I don't know if you have any experience with this, but could you help me out with some advice about this matter? All the best, Arno Wingen,
RE/MAX Top Makelaars, The Netherlands

A. Arno, if you do not have exact objections that the clients have given you, it is in your head. You cure that by being prepared, having self confidence and always doing the right thing for your client. That includes always telling the truth, even if you do not get the deal because of it. There is nothing you can do that is better than having truth on your side. Do not take the non motivated or over priced or wienie head client. Spend more time generating leads. You will be proud of yourself and always have another client - where that one came from. If you have a specific objection, I will tell you the script to use next time. Walter S. Sanford

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1/20/2004
Q. I am finishing my first year in Real Estate, and had 3 referrals last year from a bankruptcy attorney that resulted in home sales of N.O.D.'s. I would like to market to other BK attorneys and would pay a referral fee (I did some research and RESPA allows this if they are not licensees and are not involved in the transaction). Do you have any suggestions on an eye-catching letter that would help me get more of this business? Thanks, Allison

A. Like all of my material, it has to knock their socks off for them to add you to their rolodex, favorite's file, palm pilot and assistant's database. It must offer amazing services such as one of the letters in my LETTER BOOK.

Free expert witness consultation for the first hour
Free 1031 tax deferred exchange analysis done for their clients
Free short sale analysis done for their clients
The free 24 hour phone value analysis done on all local property
The free national Right Realtor® search for their clients
Plus 20 more free services!!
A letter like that makes them call you! Walter S. Sanford

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1/6/2004
Q. Wally, I have a good Sphere of Influence (SOI) and I get a decent amount of business from it but I should be getting quite a bit more based on the number of people I know and the quality of the relationships I have.

My SOI knows I'm in Real Estate, but for many of them the alarm isn't going off to tell people about me when they're talking about Real Estate. Currently I call/mail twice a year, plus I have a monthly newsletter I put out via email that's fairly well received. So far I have about 1/4 of my SOI on the newsletter, and am working to get them all signed up. I do have a few enthusiastic "fans" who refer to me consistently.

I need to know how to make it more of a priority to mention me in conversations about Real Estate. I'm calling my SOI right now but don't know how to pop the question. What's the best way to ask? I'm especially stumped on how to ask individuals whom I've already asked before and have received positive responses from but have no referrals from. Thanks for your help --Peter

PS Using your approaches to back-office operations, prospecting and servicing clients I've almost tripled my business from year one to year #2. This in spite of a fear of prospecting and an introverted, overly analytical nature. I will probably double my business again this year. Your "Ask Wally" column is the best Sales training I've found, and I've done the research - in the bookstore, in the Library and on the Web. Thanks!

A. Peter, you have hit on the problem that I have with all the Referral only trainers. It is just a small part of the total picture. Here is what I would do for a client. Start the asking process far before the transaction closes. Offer them 30 reasons to call you, things they could actually loan to their friends (their SOI). Call them more often. Get off email, no one reads it anymore - I get over 20 newsletters and just cut it down to 2. Start direct mail with unbelievable offers that create incoming phone calls. Stop depending on your database - it is a great source but their are other databases out there just as good. You are on the verge of limited returns on investment in your database - exploit the other databases that I like. Walter S. Sanford